KIAI Instructor Interview--Ivica Zdravkovic
This article is the first in what I hope is going to be a long series of interviews with the various Instructors within KIAI
KIAI: How old
were you when you start training in the martial arts, and what made you start?
Ivica:
It was back in 1979, when I entered the local judo club. I was 10 years old. Of
course, I am not counting some earlier fights after leaving the cinema where we
had watched Bruce Lee films :-)) Also, I don't count my childish nunchaku
swinging on the play yards.
I
was a little fat child, obsessed with Hong Kong movies:-)) I knew I will never
be like those short muscled acrobats who played the leading roles--so, I wanted
to be at least like the leader of bad guys in the movie, the one who loses the
fight in the final scene, but is still very good and impressive. And so, since
there were no kung fu clubs at the time, and most of the bad guys in Hong Kong
productions were Japanese, I started with a "Japanese" martial art--I
became a judoka. Actually, it was in the third grade of our elementary school
when one of my classmates took me to the training.
KIAI: What
made you start practicing sword arts?
Ivica:
Well, after several years of hard xenophobia towards all other martial arts but
judo (I was instructed from my sensei to act that way!), I finally started
thinking with my own head: I met several judoka who held karate ranks too. They
kicked my ass once or twice, and my "skill" in judo showed
insufficient, so I started practicing karate with them--without knowledge of my
judo teacher. Those were private classes, and in those classes I was also
introduced to some basics of kendo. After a while, during the middle 1980's, Serbia
was "infected" with a ninja mania, and I was infected too. Since then, I
have started collecting knowledge in as many Japanese martial arts as possible.
That "quest" also included more and more sword practice.
KIAI: Did you
ever have the chance of actually using your martial arts--especially your sword
art?
Ivica:
Yes, there were some occasions--especially while I was in high school and on my
studies in Belgrade University. While I was a teenager I was always
"cautious" and I carried my nunchaku and shuriken with me almost
everywhere. In a few situations it saved me from being beaten by the bunch of
local bullies. I had to use my jujutsu several times too--but it almost
regularly turned into a short "demonstration" which repelled the
attackers. There were no big "street fights," broken limbs or anything
like that. As for the sword--I used my "knowledge" only once: a local
guy wanted me to fight with him using big clubs. It was supposed to be a "fair
game" and he promised not to hurt me. But, he tried to hit me several
times, swinging like a baseball player. I assumed chudan no kamae and delivered
a few kote uchi and ashi uchi--it calmed him down. After a few strikes, he admitted
that there is some skill after all that had to be acquired. Later he even wanted
me to teach him some kenjutsu techniques and strategies--but he quitted soon
after that.
Actually,
the most frequent use of my budo knowledge was during my night shifts as a
doctor in E.R. I had to use pins and locks to hold down delirious or psychotic
patients. A few times it saved our inventory. My colleagues and nurses latter
insisted that I teach their children :-))
KIAI: Are you
a full time instructor, if so, what are the benefits and challenges?
Ivica:
No, I work as a doctor of medicine--budo is "only" one of my hobbies
(although my wife would disagree with such definition :-)) I highly respect all
professional instructors who support themselves from teaching martial arts--it
must be a big challenge: you have to be fit all the time, and fight with growing
concurrence. Martial business is cruel, there are many charlatans, and it is
hard to develop stable income in such circumstances. People tend to believe all
sort of foolishness, and all of a sudden, your neighborhood could be overcrowded
with clubs run by skillful frauds and moneymakers.
KIAI: If you
had the chance to start all over again, would you choose to pursue the martial
arts?
Ivica:
Yes, probably. And probably with all the same mistakes I had made in this
life...:-))
But, it is a bit hard to answer this question.
Kids are today more interested in winning medals then learning Japanese
terminology and dojo discipline. Back in my early days it was sort of an intellectual challenge. Nowadays it's all different... Not to mention that we
had a vision of well organized world of martial arts back in 1980's. For us,
there was "one judo," "one karate," there were some
authorities and models; yet, today we have a vanity fair in martial arts, it all
looks like a wild cheering circus, and young beginners easily get confused and
disgusted...
KIAI: How many
times per week do you train?
Ivica: We have a
season divided in two parts. First is from September till New Year--during that
period I usually have 2 classes. In January we have a break, and from February
till July we have 2 - 3 classes per week, depending on number of events we are
preparing for. I would like to emphasize that here I count only regular classes
in our Honbu Dojo. I sometimes give private kenjutsu classes aside from regular
ones, and we often have additional classes outdoors, especially in May and June.
I try not to be just an instructor in these classes, but also to be a good Uke
to all of my students and associates. Unlike most "coaches" who
don't even wear their budogi, in our dojo black belts are the ones who sweat the
most. I sometimes say that I get the most kicks of all--even complete beginners
are "privileged" to throw me, punch me and use me as assistant. (I will
have to reconsider all this, the years are slowly piling up and I must start
thinking of all those thousands of small injuries I took home as a souvenir :-))
KIAI: What do
you think of under age (juvenile) black belts?
Ivica: Generally, I
am strongly against it. I even gave back a couple of ranks because of too many
kids with black belts. I see a lot of karate "kindergartens" with a bunch
of black belts all under 12. In our organization we have a lower age limit of 16
for shodan (Although I don't remember anyone receiving black belt before early
twenties...). However, all rules have their exceptions and there sure may be
some extraordinary young practitioners who deserve a premature promotion. If
someone starts very early, works hard, has a lot of intelligence, talent, good
teachers, and extraordinarily strong body, it wouldn't bother me seeing such a boy or
girl receiving a black belt even before his / her 16th birthday. But, as I pointed
out, these are very rare exceptions and I haven't seen any...
KIAI: What is your opinion of competitive (sport) martial arts?
Ivica: I have a very
big respect for people involved in these activities, but in our language we have
very clear difference between martial "skills" and martial sports.
Those are two separate worlds. Many martial sportsmen think erroneously that it
is easy to become "dirty" and "switch" from sport rules to
street fight. That is one big delusion. People who spend decades on avoiding
forbidden techniques will probably not use them in combat outside the sports
arena--and that may be a fatal mistake. We all do what we practice--that is the
law of acquired reflexes. In the same context, those who practice
non-competitive arts should also avoid speaking of their potential ability to
defeat highly trained sportsmen within sport rules. We must know what we train
and where we belong. Of course, there are many who can practice both things
at the same time (i.e. successful judo competitors who also perform excellent
goshin jutsu), but it all requires more effort and talent.
Eventually, people choose one of these two
worlds--and the most common scenario is that former sportsmen turn into coaches
or referees, and those who practice non-competitive arts for years simply avoid
being "restrained" by rules. This is a very big subject, and may
provoke days of discussions. I would rather conclude it with an old maxim:
"When in Rome, act like Roman!” Forget your hundreds of techniques when
you enter the judo tournament--you will need only a few throws. Also, forget
your dozens of rules when you go out to the streets--there are no rules at all.
...But, it is sometimes hard to forget... Once
again: we do what we practice.
KIAI: Do you think the general public is misled about the ability
and practicality of budo due to the media’s portrayal of martial arts and
martial arts entertainers?
Ivica: Yes, that is
one big truth. Martial arts or should I say "martial skills” are
meant to be applied by a skillful person against a person who has no skills. Nothing
simpler! As soon as we get two skillful opponents, or one skillful martial
artist opposed to an ignorant but huge and pain resistant "monster,"
it all becomes very unpredictable. Like all sciences, martial arts have its
limits. There are many mathematical and biomechanical theories that support
this. However, I think it is the best to experience it personally in the dojo: when
you are the beginner, all black belts seem to be able to fly and walk through walls. When you
reach shodan or nidan, your senior instructors with godan or
higher ranks seem so enlightened, wise and clever. Finally, when you become
godan (like me:-)), you remember the words of Socrates: "Now I know that I
don't know anything!" It's a bit scary, but that is how I feel.
KIAI: Do you think events like the “UFC,” etc. hurt or help
martial arts?
Ivica: With the risk
of hurting someone's feelings, I must say that I don't think of these activities
as new arts or new at all. I used the word "science” in my
previous answer, and I see no science in limited rule fights ("NHB"
fights--"no-holds-bared" fights). It is mostly brutal force and
stamina, without many techniques and strategy. People will say that UFC and
other similar events actually prove that most of traditional techniques are
useless and senseless--but it is bad thinking. Actually, there are many
misconceptions with NHB events. First of all, they are not more real than
other martial sports. Most potentially dangerous things are forbidden: biting,
attacking genitals, "fish hooking," attacking opponent's eyes, pulling
his hair, etc. Second, it is not true that "90% of all fights end on the
floor". Most fights end by the involvement of spectators, who separate the
opponents, or end with the involvement of some "compensation": gun,
knife, ashtray, chair, or bunch of "his friends". Finally, when being
attacked by two or more enemies, ground fighting doesn't seem to be such a smart
choice.
Of course, there are some good things in
UFC and similar events. The most important is the fact that UFC helps martial
artists in understanding how limited their martial system can be.
But, it must be understood that it is still a
sport, with rules (even with weight categories in some cases)--and wherever we
see rules, it has little to do with real life. Put some successful "mixed
martial artist" (NHB fighter) in Olympic wrestling or boxing tournament--the
rules will decide who wins. Allow grabs to the genitals--and it all becomes
completely different! I support the idea of turning all UFC and similar events
into modernized Pankration, with rules and supervision of the Olympic Committee. It
would be a definite end of all the misconceptions and speculations
KIAI:
Do you think the non-tangible benefits of budo like self-confidence,
self-reliance, self-respect, discipline, leadership, maturity, etc. are as
important to young budoka as the physical ability to defeat or control another
person in today’s sometimes deteriorating contemporary society?
Ivica: These benefits
are neglected in modern times. Self-respect is completely missing in
aforementioned UFC events (As a doctor of medicine I guarantee that half of
those men are under some doping, and many of them will end up like cripples--that
is lack of self-respect, so typical for the prize rings). The end of the 20th century is
described as the "era of hypocrisy” and that also refers for martial
arts. Unfortunately, we see more and more adult practitioners who don't seem to
be mature at all. Some high ranked budoka are completely opposite of the
traditional picture of the wise warriors. The intellectual side of budo is forgotten,
and all of the advise from Musashi seems to be lost in time. I think youngsters should
watch more carefully what Jedi Yoda says in "Star Wars" :-)) Most of
our activities have become superficial--speed of our lives is killing us. Calm
atmosphere that a traditional dojo should help us slow down a bit. I don't think
there are many martial arts clubs that emphasize this.
KIAI: Where are martial arts, in general, heading?
Ivica: Well, since I
really dislike speaking about martial arts in general, I would rather focus on
budo (Japanese martial ways): The ultimate goal of budo is--the way I see
it--to spend a happy life in budo!!! Sounds a bit ridiculous, but that is what I
feel. Yet, one's happiness must be achieved without injuries to other people,
without breaking moral codes and widely accepted standards. So, here is my
correction to well known motto: "Budo for all, and all for budo--but with
discipline, respect and proper understanding". If we all start
following this, there would be no frauds, no abusive teachers, no wars among
"traditionalists" and modern "innovators," no arguments
among sportsmen and those who are against competitions... Otherwise, martial
arts (and budo too) will soon become the dumping ground for all sorts of human
stupidities.
KIAI: What, in your opinion, is the greatest detriment to the
martial arts?
Ivica: Vanity!
KIAI: In your
opinion, what is the ideal age to start martial arts training?
Ivica: Since I don't
run a "martial business" school, I don't have to waste my time with
kids. I have seen hundreds of them leaving after several months or several
years. In most cases, they act according to classical descriptions of child
psychology: their tenacity is poor and they change interests too fast. I think
before puberty kids simply don't know what they want. You can make them look
interested in what they do, you can even fool them into thinking they "love"
what they do--but that is all temporary: as soon as they finish elementary
school and start falling in love, they become a completely different person. That
is why I strongly recommend the following "treatment": you may accept some
cute 5, 6 or 7 years "old" girl or a boy to your dojo, but don't work too hard--that kid will most probably leave no matter what you do. True
devotion from a teacher requires more mature students with a strong desire to learn. I
honestly believe that only kids at the age of 13, 14 or even older deserve to be
"accepted" as deshi. I must also admit that my first couple of years
in the judo club was more of a game than real studying. It took me 3 or 4 years to
"finally" decide that I will continue with martial arts. And even
then, I was not as determined as I am today. In short: the older beginner you
have, the bigger are the chances to make a black belt out of him. And I mean real
a black belt--one who will become your true friend, one with whom you will be
able to discuss all aspects of budo.
KIAI: What is
your favorite part of training in Japanese swordsmanship?
Ivica: I sometimes
can’t choose between light kenjutsu sparring with a bokken and Iai kata. Both
of these parts are very interesting. But, I think I prefer sparring, for it is the
core of our kenjutsu. I always felt something spiritual in duels with my black
belt associates: mostly without any movements at all we knew who is the
"winner". That is a great thing. That is something beyond verbal
expression--almost like telepathy.
KIAI: What are
your opinions and thoughts regarding tameshigiri, and do you practice it?
Ivica: Unfortunately,
I didn't have the chance of trying it on tatami or bamboo. We did it on branches
and trees. Some of my former students and current KIAI members will sure
remember with smiles: there were a lot of problems with that: we bent our single
sharp katana more than once, and several times we were expelled from the woods
by foresters :-)) Anyway, it was a useful experience--and that type of
tameshigiri is still in our rank requirements. I was particularly happy when I
saw that this "woodcutter" style was also practiced by Musashi.
Today, I mostly practice with bokuto and dull Iaito--our improvised version of tameshigiri is left for rare occasions
(usually, several classes before some candidate gets ready for the shodan exam).
KIAI: What do
you think of kendo’s “armored philosophy” versus chanbara’s “padded
way”?
Ivica: With all due
respect to kendo, I think Chanbara has a better future. It is less expensive,
offers more techniques (i.e. ashi uchi), and I expect that Chanbara definitely
will become more and more popular. Of course, kendo will survive, but I predict more
Chanbara competitors in the future than kendo competitors. In my country there
are no more than 30 armors--it is very obvious why our kendo federation has
never grown bigger. With more Chanbara weapon suppliers, it will be easy to find
many new clubs and sections, and in a very short period Chanbara
practitioners will dramatically outnumber the "seldom-seen" kendoka.
KIAI: Do you
own an authentic Japanese made shinken, if so, how does it compare to the modern
shinken sold today?
Ivica: No, I don't
have a shinken. I can't afford one.
KIAI: What do
you think of the many modern martial art systems that are trying to copy the
ancient ryuha?
Ivica: We are in the
era of eclecticism. Many "traditional" martial arts are mixed these
days and people try to create what suits them the best. But, it is not an easy
thing to do, and people should be very careful--creating something new and
useful requires lots of knowledge and experience. For example, there are
literary hundreds of new jujutsu styles--most are created by people from judo
and/or aikido, who had mixed their techniques and compatible principles with
additional karate / kenpo techniques. Yet, it must be recognized that many of
these new "styles" qualitatively and quantitatively have nothing
"new" when compared to Kodokan Judo Goshin jutsu, or Aikikai jiyu
waza. These new "creations" don't have to be better than their
precursors--it is almost impossible :-)) BUT, then we may ask ourselves
what made the "founders" create such unoriginal things? Unfortunately,
in most cases it is all about getting high rank in your own art.
I belong to this "new" fashion
:-)) Actually, it is not new at all--only now we have Japanese arts and styles
created and reformed by westerners.... I must say that for a very long time my
association kept away from announcing new styles or arts. I passed my yondan test
in front of authorities from other jujutsu organizations. Also, I wanted the
evaluation of our Nihonto practice from people like our KIAI members. Only after
receiving a sufficient number of positive evaluations, did I became courageous
enough to
present our sword art as a separate new style of kenjutsu.
So, it all resembles
the times of the famous Butoku Kai, who recognized "newcomers" and new
styles during the first decades of the 20th century. All "founders" and
exponents of new styles must acquire proper credentials from established sensei.
The only question is who has enough of competence to give all those certificates
of recognition. What scares me the most of all is certain level of lunacy within
some groups overcrowded with "grandmasters," "soke," "O
Sensei," "Dai Shihan," etc. It is these people who make the whole new
eclecticism highly questionable.
KIAI: Do you
think it is necessary to have at least a basic understanding of the native
language and culture of the country of origin for the martial art(s) you train
in?
KIAI: Ivica, thank you for taking the time to share some of your vast knowledge and experience, we wish your the best in your on-going Budo training.
(Please, visit the website of Zdravkovic sensei at the Serbian Budo Council )