Kenjutsu Talks
This
is an excerpt from series of talks between kendo/kenjutsu student R. Enoch
Steele from Australia and kenjutsu sensei Dr. Ivica Zdravkovic from Serbia.
Many of the opinions presented here are strictly opinions of one sensei
and do not necessarily reflect any general accepted concepts, nor have
to be accepted by the majority of the Japanese sword arts community.
Enoch: Why do you wear
a karate uniform of "Gi" when doing kenjutsu?
Ivica:
I wear all sorts of budogi, mostly a heavy jacket made for jujutsu (a bit
softer than judogi). Kenjutsu can be done in any clothes - Nakamura sensei
performs Toyama Ryu batto jutsu (or, orignally, ryote gunto jutsu)
in traditional white pants of Japanese navy! Looks like some peasant from
Sicillia :) These days, I mostly put on my hakama when doing kenjutsu,
and I look like a big black bug :) But, sometimes, when the event requires
me to demonstrate other things too (e.g. karate kata, or jujutsu), I must
work with katana in whatever I have on me - including karate uniform.
Enoch: What is
"Haedong Gumdo", the Korean art of swordmanship where they use a Katana?
Do you know how the Koreans got the katana and developed it into their
own 'improvised' form of swordplay? What is your opinion on Haedong Gumdo?
Ivica:
You are most correct: Gumdo - or Kumdo - is just another parallel name
for Kendo. Korean guys are the second most successful nation on kendo
world champions, right after Japanese - so, their sword art is not bad
at all. BUT - that is KENDO, they don't have any national and historically
based art similar to kendo. It is pretty much the same like with Yudo (which
is renamed Judo), Taekwondo (nothing but Shotokan karate with renamed waza
and different emphasis on kicking), Hapkido (Daito Ryu, Aikido and Jujutsu
all mixed together). etc. Koreans are very good in this: taking Japanese
martial art, making a few changes here and there and then adding their
own name to it.
Enoch: In the new
Kendo club I have joined the instructor is a bit stoic so I was not
sure if I should tell him about your site. He is 60 years old and started
in the KATORI system when he was 9 years old. He was the first white man
to be inducted, cause his parents were British ambassadors to Japan after
the industrialisation by General McArthur. He lived in the British embassy.
He has experience of 30 years of kenjutsu, 6th Dan in kendo, 5th Dan in
Iaido. He is personal friend with the guy who translated Go Rin No Sho
into English. He knows Toshiro Obata and he has met Toshiro Mifune.
He has broken both collar bones almost lost his leg when he got distracted
doing a live blade exercise and has the end of his little finger cut when
he signed in blood which is a oath requirement of the Kattori Ryu. Now
this is the thing: he will not advertise he teaches Kenjutsu because he
says he has no authority to officially teach it, which is interesting after
30 years experience...
Ivica:
Your sensei's biography in deed sounds impressive. I don't doubt he is
a real master of the art with such a good background and such a long experience.
To your questions I can give only one answer that I know: Budo (with all
of its parts, including swordsmanship) is no longer "Japanese martial art"
- it is "martial arts of Japanese origin". It is normal evolution that
we have gendai style created by non-Japanese out of segments of various
Japan's old styles or arts. After all, in the very same way the old styles
were crated too. I see no problem with that - having someone with respectable
knowledge creating his style and asking for proper recognition among experts
in the field. On the other side, I also can understand the loyalty and
respect demonstrated from your teacher, who even after so may years will
not teach without proper authorisation. He can do one of three things:
never get that authorisation and never teach; or contact his teachers and
their successors, demonstrate his mature art and get a teaching license;
or simply teach bits of everything he knows under a new name - and get
it recognised as a new style from authorities that he respects...
Enoch: Can we really
think -- because will live in the 20th Century --that we can add to or
take away or know better an art that has evolved in a military state, with
state military psychology, than the people who have made it evolve? These
people actually lived by the sword, carry it on their hip all day and sleep
with it under there pillow at night, their minds are constantly night and
day thinking about sword techniques that their lives depend on...
I think it is hypercritical that men think they know better than what the
old school Japanese have given us. I seriously doubt that I given a life
time could even think of one thing in kenjutsu the samurai didn't think
of first.
Ivica:
You are right about some things, like there is not much to be added to
the swordsmanship of Japanese origin. In deed, people with such devotion
and everyday's care of their art would hardly forget anything valuable.
From such position, anyone who is synthesising his art from bits of other
arts can only "borrow" techniques and principles, and there is no need
of creating anything new at all. However, the main reason for eclecticism
lies in other things, not in creation of new ways of cutting, or creation
of new kata:
1)
First thing to remember is that most of the current surviving koryu styles
and all Gendai nihonto arts are created in relatively peaceful period after
battle of Sekigahara. All these so called "Edo styles" are sometimes referred
to as "flowery styles". Swordsmanship in the days of Sengoku Jidai was
much simpler, more crude and distilled on the battlefield. Teachers and
"inventioners" in peace-time feudal Japan were as much "reality-inexperienced"
as most of the modern practitioners. This is also a reason why the sword
came into the first place among the weaponry during the peace-time of Tokugawa
Shogunate. Before that, sword was secondary to archery and spear... Same
as Jujutsu - it has been developed into +700 styles after the wars were
finished... In context of all of this, modern eclecticism sometimes aims
to expel those "flowery" techniques and ceremonial inapplicable techniques
that were added as a bandage around the core of practical swordsmanship.
I can list you a great number of such useless things and inapplicable techniques,
but I better leave you find them. Or, if you want, just think if some of
katachi from kendo, and some of Seitei iaido kata. Here is another clue:
Nakamura sensei, father of modern Toyama Ryu, said: "We do not practice
anything from seiza, because if you were in seiza in feudal Japan, it meant
that you had already left your sword on the door".... That was the reiho
of the old days, and Nakamura is probably right. So, there are no seated/kneeling
kata in Toyama Ryu. However, all the koryu styles have them... Who is wrong?
Or, who is wrong when it comes to sageo (the rope on scabbard)? Some are
tying it in a knot (like in seitei iaido), some are just leaving it loose
hanging from their hip (like in Katori Shinto Ryu), and some are even removing
it, or using it for Hojo Jutsu like in Kukishin Ryu or other styles. Well,
I guess it is the task of modern eclectics to decide what will be their
own way...
2)
Because of "flowery" nature of most of known styles created in Edo period,
most of them also have some holes. Some are too much focused on iai jutsu
(batto), some are too much focused on sparring (like kendo), some don't
even have it, some do not have katachi (paired drills), some have too many
of them, some include tameshigiri, other don't even mention it, etc, etc.
It is really hard to find a single style which would be satisfactory for
modern people who are seeking for "full spectrum" of techniques, practice
methods and applications.
If
for no other reasons, these two are already enough to make you wonder:
"Can I mix up something a bit more comprehensive and more reasonable?"
It is not creating new arts - kenjutsu in general is one art: art of using
sword. It is just selecting your focuses and making a good teaching/training/testing
structure...
Enoch: Have you or anybody
you know ever been involved in a kenjutsu challenge either friend or foe?
By anyone? A bujutsu master or anyone? And what is your belief about accepting
or taking up a challenge? What is the correct thing to do if some "Soke"
storms into a dojo unannounced and demands a duel with 'do' kote and bokken?
It's happened in my area... The sword has an interesting affect on men:
it is like wine, it can drive them wild, and give ideas of ridiculous
grandeur?
Ivica:
Yes, I had challenges, some with open animosity from opponents, some with
smiles that say "I want to play a bit", and some just out of curiosity
from people who wanted to test my knowledge. In my early days I was frequently
challenged by inexperienced people, who wanted just to "confess" me that
there is nothing to be learned about the sword - you just take it and kill
someone. I have never used real swords nor have I ever used any protection,
I always did one simple form of "duels": anything is allowed with bokken,
except striking with full force to the head. So - these first duels were
funny - I just kept my sword in Chudan no kamae and kept striking hands
and legs of "challengers" They would act like baseball players, swinging
with their swords everywhere around, and it gave me plenty of opportunities
to show them that kenjutsu is a science after all.
Later,
I had to prove my art to almost all senior people and people from other
styles (especially ninjutsu and aikido) who would come to join my dojo
and learn kenjutsu from me. These were not challenges with open animosity,
but most of these people have taught they will perform better than they
actually did. After two or three strikes and tsuki, they would all just
stop, start smiling and say: OK, please, teach me that.
I
guess that's it. Sword in deed can make you feel invincible - but then,
if you have good peers, students and assistants, soon or a later they start
whacking youo n the had and they start paying you "debts" - so you realise
you are not invincible and you must make one more step ahead in your studies
- or they will catch you up. (And they always do! Hahaha).
Enoch: Have you apart
from your younger days ever been bested in a challenge and if bested what
do you do or how do you think one should conduct themselves?
Ivica:
I sure was bested in challenges - if you are counting all the sparring
that I had with my senior students and associates in Serbian Budo Council.
Such things happen - just like I told you - one strives to be better, then
if you are the instructor, your students are "after you" - and from time
to time, if you teach them really honestly - they"catch you" - which
makes you work more, etc, etc. Anyway these were all test-sparring
events, friendly matches which could hardly be considered challenges. I
was always glad when some of my students or associates beaten me (like
- gave me a strike on hand, or so) - because I then knew I have a good
sparring partner who will help me being better in the future - and also,
it is nice if you teach someone and you see him becoming so good that he
beats you with knowledge and skills that you had provided. I was never
vain in such occasions, and once more - a smile solved the situation. Smile
is always good - it helped some of those who - from time to time - won
a point on me, to understand that I am not going to get furious or something,
and that I admit their victory and admire their moment. That is "Onegai
Shimasu - Oshiete kudasai" the way I understand it...
Enoch: What is your attitude
when you receive an unfriendly challenge? This is something I have
given I lot of thought, but have still not come to a certain conclusion.
For example I don't know what they are thinking? How do you show them you
can beat them? Beat theme 5 times or just once ? Do you work out the provisions
of the challenge before you start? What if they are unreasonable and will
not communicate? Because they may want to demonstrate they are superior
or whatever and the only way you can suppress this is to inflict damage
on them?...
Ivica:
Mind of a challenged man should be flexible. If you were reading Musashi's
Gorin no sho, then you know it: it all depends on attitude of your opponent.
I must confess that I am never as calm as myths are speaking about it.
Adrenaline definitely plays its role. But, I try to use Japanese trick;
when you are nervous, smile. So, I mostly smile, and it either softens
my opponents, or even completely repels them. Smile is a mighty thing.
As for how you show themem you can win - it is a matter of several things.
First, I must confess that all of these "challenges" took place in clubs
that I run - so, I was surrounded with my students and associates, and
when they start smiling on someone's stupidity, it means a lot. Several
times it was them who convinced certain people not to attempt a thing.
They are at the same time my advocates, my bodyguard (yeah, why not :-))
and people who would very gladly accept the challenge for me. I most often
said: here are my students. If you can beat them, then I will fight with
you. However, you are right - sometimes some fellows just do not speak
much and like to stay on the edge of the line and you simply see they are
hardly waiting to embarrass you and to test their skills on you. Then,
you usually invite them to assist you, and you say: "OK, we will do a light
sparring now, in order to show this or that", Then, you say: "Attack me
whatever you like" - and there - 100% of fools so far wanted to use that
chance instantly and to try to break my head - but at the same time, 100%
of them so far forgot their legs and/or hands, so a good sukui kiri (cut/strike
to their leg) stopped them instantly. It causes some damage, yes, but that
is the way of kenjutsu.
Once
more, I believe that only inexperienced people will rush into an unfriendly
challenge without previously carefully inspecting your art by training
with you, or just watching your classes. Most of really good instructors
will try to be your friends - most of them know any such conflict will
show nothing - in case of advanced sensei any serious fight ends with aiuchi
- mutual strikes at the same time... So, knowing this fact, you are free
to accept challenges, because most of them come from foolish wannabes who
are uncertain of their knowledge. People who are sure of what they know
do not need to challenge other men - they can recognise if they are better
or not without any fight at all :)
Enoch: My old bujutsu
teacher who used to just teach me sword techniques, used to (and
probably still does) perform in martial arts exhibitions, where he would
cut apples on peoples necks and stomachs with a live blade. When I joined
the Shinkendo school, I spoke with the instructor about this and he said
he knew about it, and that it was stupidity and that the acid in the fruit
would eat into and canker the blade. What is your opinion?
Ivica:
That thing with apple I saw once on TV, it seemed much more impressive
to me than simple tameshi kiri. I always object that common tameshi kiri
does not include preciseness of the cut - while cutting through apple bellow
someone's chin is matter of extreme preciseness (or accidental murder!!!).
I
would say that speaking of acid and damages that can happen is a bit of
a crap!!!! Imagine some samurai avoiding practising his cuts, because he
is afraid that his blade could hit the bone and get the damage!!!! People
should read Hagakure more than they do (if they do at all!!!!). There they
can find numerous examples of people practising with their shinken on prisoners
- without fear for blade. It is a weapon, not a souvenir!
I
don't have expensive blades, I don't care even if they break, so - I am
free to cut trees, cut through Coke cans, or through all sorts of grapes,
fruits and veggies thrown at me! Musashi was cutting down whole forests
- he was not concerned about the damages to his edge. Eventually, if you
clean your blade immediately after your practice, nothing will happen to
it...
Enoch: I have read about
the lives of great samurai like Musashi and others who have carefully prepared
for each duel as a matter of honour and life and death. One story I have
been told is of two samurai both first class swordsman who face each other
in a test of skill. So, they both face off with powerful Zanshin
and neither can find a weakness in each others spirit to exploit, so the
two of them stand there for two entire days and nights until one flinches
and a weakness is exploited and Victory taken.
Ivica:
I know about your tale of two swordsmen standing still for hours (I didn't
know it was two days) and then deciding who was the winner even without
moving. I would even say that in our dojo we feel something similar quite
often - only, there are small and almost invisible movements with kissaki,
or small adaptations of body stance and/or chudan no kamae... It has happened
many times - without any visible movement, without any visible action,
me or my associates wool just smile - and that would mean: "Hahahaha, did
you see that? Yeah, sure you did. You just got me!" It was always mutual
agreement and I believe it is one of the highest levels of mutual understanding
among people who train together for years - and among people who are experienced
fighters. Unfortunately, I have sensed it only with two of the people whom
i had personally trained in kenjutsu. But, i sensed it many times in karate,
judo and jujutsu sparring...
Enoch: In Kendo it does
not appear to work like this is. From what I have learned and have seen
from my old Sensei (who was the top gun Kendoka and national champion),
both he and his adversary are constantly scoring points on each other.
Unlike what I imagine in the historical setting of old Japan when a single
bout was life and death. Example the old Samurai encapsulates this: "One
Breath, One Life, One Action". How do I understand the relationship between
these to seeming inconsistencies?
Ivica:
Inconsistency between "motionless fights" in kenjutsu and "whacking day
festivals" on kendo classes comes from wrong philosophy built in the very
roots of kendo. In kendo there is no awareness of SHINAI BEING ACTUALLY
A LIVE BLADE REPLACEMENT! So, they push each other on their chest (mune,
do) with tips of their weapons, they cut each other's hands while "fist
wrestling" to make preparation for shomen uchi, they do all sort of things
which would be fatal in real fight - and which are not scored in kendo
match - so nobody cares! It is probably one of the main reasons why
I have 5h Dan in kenjutsu and not in kendo - I cannot understand and accept
such reasoning.
Enoch: I know what you
mean about Kendo and am not offended. About five months ago my outlook
on kendo changed. I originally was to understand that Kendo is a "Do" system
with the higher learning of philosophy attached - and Kenjutsu was raw
grass roots swordmanship that is "REAL"( that it is what you would need
if you were escorted back to the ancient Japans in a time machine and had
to survive as a swordsman). However, my new instructor changed my view
in a few sentences. He said Kendo is actually a kenjutsu because you actually
strike each other, that is real! Not even in kenjutsu can you really simulate
the same kind of real live contact that you can in kendo! And I thought:
"Yeah that is right, Kendo is really a natural evolution of kenjutsu and
makes a lot of sense". Many people in my opinion do not understand how
Kenjutsu, Kendo and Iaido all complement each other and are all necessary
really. The dividing of these disciplines would have made no sense in my
opinion in the ancient world.
Ivica:
You are absolutely right: the dividing of one and simple "Japanese sword
art" into such separate disciplines like kendo, iaido, or modern kenjutsu
is meaningless. Kendo is a part of kenjutsu, and so is iaido. But, most
of the people are crippled in one way or another, because their derivatives
do not offer certain very important portions of the art. Just take a look
at the Iaido people - those who practce ONLY iaido: 99% of them wouldn't
have a clue what to do in sparring. Same as kendo people, who would almost
regularly be killed in the first second of live blades fight - because
of their careless attitude towards certain techniques which are "not scored"
in their SPORT. Fortunately, many Iaido people practice kendo too, and
vice versa, and lot of them experiment at least in some period of their
lives with less limited rules than in kendo. I believe the latest invention,
the chanbara padded weapons, offer a great opportunity of being even closer
to real. Of course, reality will never be simulated in dojo - but one really
devoted kenshi should (must - IMHO) strive to such practice which would
make him understand completely all the aspects of his weapon. This is one
of main reasons why people create their own systems, like we did in Serbia:
you combine kendo, iai, etc - and that is nothing new, but such "compilation"
of techniques and training methods is no longer kendo or iai: the best
name I could think of is KENJUTSU.
Enoch: I was told that
in old Japan some schools believed that the wooden sword was superior to
the live blade. Would you say it would be reliable in a serious combat
situation? Could a man of our size with a bokuto stop one of those massive
people from American wrestling shows with a well directed, true, and full
force strike?
Ivica:
Someone really brave (or mad) can choose not to carry a real sword, but
wooden replica - and face with that weapon the other samurai. I would have
never do that. A sword is a sword. Wooden sword is never superior to a
live bade - believe me. Live bade is a live blade - it is simply an axiom.
Period! Try sparring with dull iaito - and you will see what happens. You
(like me, and everyone else) will freeze from fear when you hear the sound
of two metal edges colliding....!
As
for question about facing a Monster Truck - sized men with your boken,
do not fear - you can handle him, just practice. No one can "build up"
or "muscle up" his groins :) Also, shin of every man is almost the same
- it breaks with ease with a solid strike. Not to mention that everyone
has a xyphoid and eyes - very nice places to stab your sword into!
Enoch: My sensei has
an unusually long iaito that he uses and he has said that none of us could
use one as long as his because if we did, we could not perform noto and
resheath the blade, but it would take some time to learn with a sword that
long. I didn't know one could have an unusually long iaito because if one
did - then when doing kenjutsu if you do kesargiri then you would hit the
floor...
Ivica:
Your sensei uses longer iaito - his freedom. I have seen such variations
- i.e. my friend and kenjutsu sensei from UK uses iaito which has a tsuka
that is double-length of normal one. As far as I am concerned, I use swords
that I get my hand on - does not matter to me - and I allow my students
to use what they want. Proper "saya biki" or scabbard movement during noto
will enable even smallest people to use the longest swords. Also, you can
strike the floor (or your knee) even with wakizashi if you are careless:)
I use katana which is 98 cm long.
Enoch: Now about something
my sensei said last week about the different attitudes kamae have. He went
through the different kamae and told us the spiritual feeling of each.
He demonstrated one like hasso no kamae where the sword is vertical and
the tsuba is in front of the face somewhere between the chin and the nose:
he said this was an intimate kamae of comfort and safety... He then showed
us another where he just dropped the sword to the ground in a low kamae
with the ken-sen pointing about just below my knee toward the ground.
Sensei only mentioned it briefly but suffice it to say he said it was considered
"mysterious". Strangely I have always had the same feeling about that kamae
but - what does this kamae really mean? Why is it considered secretive
or mysterious?
Ivica:
Here is just a small but nice explanation abut "mysterious" nature of gedan
no kamae: you never know what will be the reaction of "sleeping dragon"!
That is the metaphor that tells you a lot. If you face an opponent with
gedan no kamae, he is either a total moron, or some superb master who allows
himself to play games with you.
Enoch: Actually there
is also that kamae in the 1970's "Baby Cart to Hell", called the "Sea Gull",
Kamae with the sword held by just the right hand above and in front of
the head on a 45' degree angle with the ken-sen pointing toward the left
side. It is also considered mysterious...
Ivica:
"Sea gull" sword position is, in fact, what I use as my favourite katate
haso no kamae - and that one is a mighty position, because you are prepared
to deliver kesa giri, you can perform kiri age, and your stance says: I
do not even intend to fight, block, parry, or something - I will just CUT
you. It is reserved for advanced levels of swordsmanship and only when
you are absolutely sure that you have superior level of skills.
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